S4: E2: Let us Learn Too and SEND Reform: Nicole Bateman chats with Hayley Harding

In this powerful and honest conversation, Nicole sits down with Hayley Harding, co-founder of Let Us Learn Too, a grassroots parent-led campaign group fighting for the rights of disabled children in education.

Together, they explore the urgent need for genuine reform within the SEND system and why lived experience must be at the heart of any meaningful change. Hayley shares her own journey as a parent navigating the system, how Let Us Learn Too began, and what the group is doing to push for a more inclusive, accountable and compassionate approach to education through the upcoming SEND white paper and reform proposals.

They also dive into:

• What true co-production looks like and why it matters
• The emotional and practical impact of a failing system on families
• How parents, professionals and young people can work together for change
• The importance of keeping disabled children’s rights and voices front and centre in policy
• How we shift from tick-box listening to real partnership

This episode will leave you feeling informed, inspired, and reminded that we are stronger when we push for change together.

Follow Nicole on www.instagram.com/conversationswithasendmum for exclusive peeks to weekly episodes. Please do send feedback and rate this podcast to help it reach those who would benefit.

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Check out our Season 1 and 2 sponsor The Super Sensory Squad who support kids in understanding the eight sensory systems and emotional regulation using their penguin squad at: www.thesupersensorysquad.com and www.instagram.com/thesupersensorysquad

Transcript

2:09

Hello and welcome to Conversations with a SEND Mum Podcast with me as your host, Nicole Bateman. Today I am joined by Haley Harding from Let Learn two. Welcome Haley. Thank you. Thank you for having me. That's alright. So first of all, my first question, can you tell us what is your link to the SEND or NEUROT community please? Sure. So well my first link, and obviously my most important link are my two kids. So Matthew, my eldest who's 10, he's got, he's autistic, A DHD, and Dyspraxic. And then I also have a younger son, Connor, who's also autistic. But obviously on top of that I'm also the founder of the parent campaign group. Less learned. Excellent. So you have been doing even, even this week you have been doing some very exciting and important things. So can you tell me what you've been up to recently through Lettuce Learn two. Yep. Yeah, so let Land's whole premise and why it started was originally'cause we wanted to get parents' voices in there. And then as it developed, we were really concerned about the lack of child's voices in the whole sense system conversation. And so if you look back over kind of things that we've done and our Instagram page, a website, et cetera, then you'll see previous videos we've had where we've showed the, the, the core pain that this system causes children mainly, and so that's why with everything that's been going on recently and obviously there's been a lot of leaks and a lot of worry amongst parents and we know from what the government has said so far, that reforms are definitely on the table. We wanted to make sure that children weren't forgotten in all of this.'cause it's very easy as bureaucrats and mps to kind of see the pound sign, see the numbers all on a spreadsheet, and forget about ultimately who this is all about. So we decided we wanted to arrange a, an MPS drop in in parliament that was just for children to come along and the mps to talk to them directly For this one, specifically, every child there was actually in a mainstream class with support or a mainstream school, and so it was very easy to say. You've got five children here right now, all with supporting school, and you are proposing potentially to take that all away. And so the premise of the the whole event was to make it easy for mps basically to be able to be in their office building and, and go and meet these kids. Yeah. And that's so important, isn't it? Like you said, seeing actual people. Yeah, like actual children. Yeah, because that's what it's all about. That's the core of the matter, that we want them to be able to learn, to be able to thrive to. To be able to feel safe in an education setting, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely. And that's it. It's, it's a real, like we, so we've joined up as lesser two with the Disabled Children's Partnership on a, a new campaign called Fight for Ordinary, and the reason we've done that is because we don't want anything extra special. We just want our kids to go to school, be happy, not have to go through this ridiculous, long, elongated destroying fight. That it takes in order for us to get our children the ordinary ask that is just for our children to go to school and learn. So yeah, that's why it was really important. I, I felt that we made sure we did this and we did this before the end of the session before they go on recess, because we wanted people to just remember that we're not asking for anything exceptional. It's just purely go to school, be happy, learn. Yeah, absolutely. And there's so many stories some have shared on this podcast and just generally, of how the reception of asking for reasonable adjustments so that they can actually access learning. It's nothing above and beyond. It's literally to be able to access it. Has has been met with, such negativity from some, I had a guest from Visible Autism, you know, she was talking about the college, just we saying, no, you are asking for too much. And it's like, no. For example, with my son, he can't access big chunks of writing if you just said, right. Do, do this, this, and this. You need to chunk down the instructions and all of those things, and then he can access it. Mm-hmm. But otherwise, he just goes into that freeze mode because his nervous system's dysregulated. His self-esteem goes down. All of those different things, but actually a simple differentiation, mm-hmm. As a former teacher, I'm like, you're taught about differentiation. Anyway. And so therefore with just the simple things, breaking into single step instructions would make such a massive difference on so many levels. Both learning, but also self-esteem as well. Yeah, completely. Yeah, and it, like I say, it doesn't always take a lot, but unfortunately we have a school system right now that is obviously bursting at the seams. Financially. Their, their budgets are probably at the lowest they've ever been per head. It is such small things, but obviously when there's only one teacher in a classroom with 30 others, they need the time to be able to do that, and that's the message we need to be. Kind of banging on the government's door. I think from what I understand and the parents I speak to is nobody is against reform, but you've gotta do it properly and you've got to do it with the right funding and the right structure around it so that this time it works.'cause I certainly don't wanna be here again in 10 years time doing this. I want it to work. And yeah, like you said, we need to get back to the core of what is going wrong, because I feel like that is the big thing. The big part that's bit missing right now is that, like, for example, if you watch the education committee a couple of weeks ago with Kath McKinnell and the DFEI personally just didn't hear that they'd worked out what's causing all this. And I had to say I did speak to somebody at the DFE at the drop in. I said exactly this. I'm not saying anything that, I haven't said them to them directly, but I said, look, we are parents. We've got vulnerable children. And if you are gonna change it, we need to know that what you are changing and why. And at the moment we don't feel that who knows if to tip the Cummins on board or not, but I just felt it needed to be said because I think that is the bit that worries me the most right now is how can you fix something without establishing what the problem is in the first place. Yeah, absolutely. And, and often parents are seen as a problem. Kids are seen as a problem in the system. Many of us have, have had that. What do you think is actually the real core of the issue? I think unfortunately we are, we are living now the legacy of a legislation that did have gaps in the sense that people weren't accountable. So a, a kind of a culture has built over 10 years, which we all feel the result of, of local authorities believing that the law doesn't apply to them. And then what's happened? Over that time is that EHPs have become the only way to get support, which for a lot of the children now who've got them, shouldn't be the case. They should be given the support without the plan and having to go through all that assessment. But what has happened is budgets have of right, so obviously when a child has an EHP, the school have to pay for that money. Got EHP first. That means less money for the other non EHCP needs. And of course as more and more EHPs keep coming, this spiral has kind of taken place, which has now got us into a place where it's all EHPs and no money left. And so I do think there does need to be reform. I I certainly, from my group's perspective, perspective, we're not against it, as I've said just now, but I think what we need to do is, one, get a better understanding of like, say, neurodivergence social, emotional and mental health needs. We need better planning. Definitely got the amount of times I've heard about parents getting to secondary level and suddenly there's still no places. You've known that child is coming up through the primary school for six years and yet you haven't planned ahead. You've had plenty of time that needs to be addressed. We do need to look at why so many children can't go to school closer. We need to look at building more specialist schools, more specialist provision. I think there's so much to this. In essence, I think it's, it's planning, it's looking at a sensible approach with the right amount of money. And it is, I think just trying to change the system so that we can put kindness back in there again.'cause right now it doesn't feel like that, but that is there. Yeah, kindness is absolutely key and yeah, all of mindset. In a lot of people as well. Like what I find is when I'm training children's activity providers and things like that, some of the things, looking at behavior for example, in a different way, like getting curious about behavior, thinking what's underneath that iceberg. Maybe they are dysregulated rather than just being naughty. Yeah.'cause you know, the DFE, they, they produce some more, stats, didn't they just, I think this week or last week talking about, send, kids are eight times more likely to get permanently excluded and you're like, okay, so, if you actually understand needs there needs to be that training in place. Because when I was a teacher, I think I had probably. One PowerPoint, this is autism or whatever, and it was a stereotypical, rather than, looking at the nuances and the individual needs and masking and all of those things, they didn't come up. Mm-hmm. So, some of that, that mindset shift in training and understanding with both teachers and TAs because you don't know what you don't know. Yeah. Yeah, I wish that I knew what I knew now when I was first teaching. And don't you also feel it as a parent? We are. I'm still learning. I even now, I'm still learning my son's needs and what he needs and from day-to-day changes. And so to expect a teacher to suddenly be able to just nail it in an hour's tra level of training, well how, if I can't do it and I'm with him all the time, how can they do that? So yeah, I completely agree. I think there definitely needs to just be more general acceptance, more general understanding. And like I said, the, the kind of the labels, I think it's just so easy for people just to say, oh, that's just bad behavior. Rather than, it is almost like it's easier to do that than it is to think, okay, let's take 10 seconds more and think about what was the cause what triggered it, what happened before, and the lead up to that. But it's just easier, isn't it, just to brandish that person and then that child and then in, in, in the end, like they end up excluded. Yeah. It's it's, I think it's one of those conversations that you have all the time and you still can't understand why they haven't fixed it yet. Like it's been 10 years. Come on. Yeah, absolutely. And it's, it's heartbreaking some of the stories of real children and, not having school spaces for years, some of my friends and you are like, oh, they are amazing children. They just need the right environment. To feel safe and then therefore they can do all the other things. Yeah, absolutely. And so bright and clever and witty and all these other characteristics that we should be embracing, not shutting away. One example I've got this is a lovely girl Katie who she was in the lessons learn to, we can learn video at the beginning of last year. And she'd done some campaigning and a little bit for her local against her local council. And she has two parents who went to Oxford or her dad's an Oxford professor. Incredibly bright girl. As a result of what she went through at primary school, ended up getting PTSD from sort of school and then couldn't go to school. Now she's sat in front of an audience of, I think it was like 300 people on women's hour, speaking eloquently, intelligently. She was there on Tuesday, really brilliantly advocating on behalf of every child in this country with. Said. And you think, why couldn't we teach her? Like, come on. So it, yeah. I just think people need to realize by not getting this right, we are losing so much talent that we'll all benefit from if we get it right. Yeah, absolutely. It just makes me sad. Like, because you're like, you just, they're kids. Yeah. And they have so much potential and we wanna nurture potential rather than cross it down and like, you know, cause that trauma of school and all of those different things. Yeah. And things. Things could be so different. So what are you kind of, what are your next steps with Let's learn to, yeah. So obviously we've had quite a week. But I think the next step, so we're gonna have an I I, I'm kind of saying this in slight hesitation, have to just recovering from the one on Tuesday, but we are gonna be doing another drop in alongside the DCP in September, which should be great. It's gonna be bigger. Hopefully we'll get more publicity, et cetera, et cetera there. That's very much the idea with that. Alongside that, we're also organizing a rally. The reason why we haven't released the date yet. We're still waiting for confirmation from the council. So as soon as we get that, we'll we will be going out there and obviously letting everyone know so they can join us. But all being, well, it will be in September and so that the parents and everyone can come along to this one rather than obviously just the few kids that we are able to get invites for on Tuesday. So yeah, that. That's stage two. And then in the meantime, obviously I'm still trying to batter down the doors and get to meet the mp the ministers we are finding it really hard. I've been shut out. Well, I say shut out. I've been refused meetings like 3, 4, 5 times now every time. So we're gonna keep trying'cause it's really important that we are heard and that the people who live. The reality of any decisions made are hurt because that doesn't, it doesn't feel like that's where we're at right now. So yes, that's kind of the next stage. And then who knows from there? We shall see. Yeah, well, hopefully, you know, some of these different things that you are doing and putting in place and the rally and the drop-ins will make that impact and will be able to gain, you know, access to meetings and be able to co-produce. Reform strategy because that's all, that's all we're asking for, isn't it? Is that co-production? Yeah, and like you said, you know, it's not, oh no, don't reform because we know that there needs to be reformed. But it's just how that reform happens and making sure that everyone is involved with lived experience because you just, you, you just don't necessarily, you just don't know unless you've done it. And even this week, I was just chatting with. My son's teachers, so my son's autistic and has epilepsy. And my daughter is not autistic and does not have epilepsy. And I said to the teachers, thank you. They've been amazing this year. So I'm so grateful they get it and they understand. I said, thank you so much. I know that I obviously pop in and, and share different bits and things like that. Mm-hmm. So I really appreciate it. I said, with my daughter, I just send her in and don't really speak to the teacher. It is like a totally different Yeah. Experience. Yeah. And they're like, yeah, that's fine. I know that you need to be able to, you don't want to be seen as being, I, I don't wanna be seen as being annoying. I am generally a people pleaser. However, I have to advocate and share and do those things, and I'm not, not afraid to do that if I, if my son's needs aren't being met. So, yeah. No, I know. I totally hear you on that one. I was thinking, well, if, if I had two children, like my daughter for example, where I literally, oh. And go like that. I just wouldn't have any understanding of the mental load of the realities there. So if no one who has that lived experience and knows that reality is involved in reforming, it's not fair. No, it's not. And I think that's why when you hear about certain things being leaked, that's what it feels like because the solutions coming out right now are not the right ones. No, absolutely. And I, and I think it is so worrying, we fought for 51 weeks to get the HP for my son and had to overturn different things and go like, oh, actually, are you following Send Law right now? There's only two criteria for assessment. And he meets like, and they were like, oh yeah, okay, well overturn that. It's like that fight and that. That place you are in mentally sometimes as a parent, when you are in that high alert, in that fight mode, the amount of cortisol that is rushing through your body. Oh yeah. Awful. Yeah. I look back to last year and I'm like, wow, I would not in a good place. No, and the thing is, you're being told that you are gonna be, your child is gonna be forced into an environment that will frighten them and do them long-term damage. And you know that as their parent, and yet you're expected to accept that. It's no wonder that it is one of the most stressful things that, because our whole, instinct is to protect them. And the system takes away that protection and that's, that's what's so hard about it. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So for people listening, as we close up. What are some kind of tips or some encouragement or thoughts for people who are feeling a little bit worried right now about, what they've heard in the news and all of the different things? So as an action, I would say everybody get meetings with your mps. Email them. Tell them your fears. Tell them what you're worried about. Tell them what you would accept, what changes you wouldn't accept and what you can't accept. It's really important that mps know that so that when the white paper is announced in September or October whenever it's gonna be. They're ready for that and they will have a good knowledge behind it. In terms of the general outlook look, it's not over, straight away. As soon as it's published, obviously it's got to go through readings and has to be voted for in the commons so we have time to, to get it right. It's not the end by any means. But the best way we can do this is to come together. And even, I think the one message at the moment I really wanna get out is not everyone is gonna agree on every single little thing of what could be right or wrong, but I think we need to embrace the fact we've all got different ideas and ultimately our ultimate goal for everyone is the same. So I think just sit like kind of that can resonate with everyone. That can only be a positive. Yeah. Absolutely great advice and yeah, definitely chat with your mp and, get your views heard. And we need to be united, like you said, even if our opinions differ, we all want our kids to feel safe in an education setting. Exactly. And many kids do not right now. So, that's why things do need to change. In a, in the right way. Absolutely. Yeah. Let's hope so. Yeah. So where's the best place to connect with you and your organization? Yeah, at the moment, Instagram, that seems to be the, the place that everyone connects with me more easiest. And to be honest, that's the one I tend to concentrate on the most on. So if you want any updates on what we're doing and I try and feed through as much kind of in terms of news and send news, et cetera as well. So to keep everyone updated. So, yeah. Please subscribe and I will do my best to keep everyone informed. Yeah. Excellent. So let us learn too on Instagram. Yeah. And Haley, thank you. Oh, like thank you for all that you're doing. That, that you ran, that drop in, that you're organizing the the rally. It is really important and, many of us are so thankful for you doing that. Thank you for the support. So thank you Hailey, and we'll be back in two weeks time for the next episode of Conversations with a SEND Mom. In the meantime, there's lots of episodes to catch up with and also do follow conversations with Ascend Mom on Instagram. And please do share and like, and review the podcast on wherever you listen to it so that it can reach more people. Have a lovely few weeks.