Dyslexia, ADHD and Parent burnout: Nicole Bateman chats with Liz Evans

In this episode of Conversations with a SEND Mum, Nicole sits down with Liz Evans;  an Occupational Therapist, mum, and the brilliant mind behind The Untypical OT.

Together they dive into an honest chat about dyslexia, parental burnout, and what it really means to live and work while navigating neurodivergence as both a parent and professional.

Liz shares her journey with dyslexia and how it has shaped the way she approaches her work and supports families. Nicole opens up about her own ADHD diagnosis, how it helped her understand her patterns of overwhelm and hyperfocus, and why this insight has changed how she looks after herself and her family.

This is a conversation full of compassion, connection, and those 'I thought it was just me' moments exploring the emotional load that often comes with caring, advocating, and trying to hold it all together while supporting neurodivergent children.

In this episode, we talk about:

• The realities of burnout for parents and professionals in the SEND community
• How dyslexia and ADHD shape the way we process, plan, and parent
• Why understanding our own neurotype is key to self-compassion
• Practical strategies for pacing, rest, and regulation
• Letting go of perfection and embracing being 'untypical'

If you’ve ever felt exhausted by the constant juggle or found yourself running on empty while supporting everyone else, this episode is a gentle reminder that you’re not alone and that understanding your own brain is one of the most powerful steps towards balance.

Follow Nicole on www.instagram.com/conversationswithasendmum for exclusive peeks to weekly episodes. Please do send feedback and rate this podcast to help it reach those who would benefit. Nicole is The Friendly SEND Advisor for children's activity providers and tutors helping them create inclusive sessions for all children.

Check out our Season 3 and 4 sponsor Rachel's 3 R's Subscription Box: Dedicated to helping SEND mums feel calmer and more relaxed by providing a box of products and online support for self-care. Follow on www.instagram.com/rachelsthreerssubscriptionbox and use the code NICOLE10 for 10% off your first order at https://rachel-s-three-r-s.subbly.me/

Check out our Season 1 and 2 sponsor The Super Sensory Squad who support kids in understanding the eight sensory systems and emotional regulation using their penguin squad at: www.thesupersensorysquad.com and www.instagram.com/thesupersensorysquad

Transcript

2:09

Hello and welcome to Conversations with Send Mum with me as your host, Nicole Bateman. Today I am joined with Liz Evans, the Untypical ot. Welcome Liz. Hi. Thanks for having me. That's all right. So first of all, I wanna ask you, uh, like I ask a lot of my guests, what is your connection to the SEMD or neurodivergent community, please? Well, a couple of connections. As it says in my title, I am an ot for those that haven't heard of that, uh, is an occupational therapist. So I have spent all of my career kind of working and supporting, sometimes known to me and sometimes unbeknown to me, neurodivergent people in some way, shape or form. Um, I think then as we've, as kind of my family has grown and I've had my kids, is that I have now a son who is autistic. And he is on an atos package, so that's educated other than at school. So he works from home and doing his learning from home due to difficulties that he was having in school. We had a massive mental health breakdown in school and we had to look at doing life differently as many of us in Neurodiverse and divergent families need to. And then a bit later along the line, I have my own diagnosis. I always had suspected and probably knew I was dyslexic. But had kind of masked my way through school, through work. Um, had always been very anxious about writing and communication and that kind of thing of read reading was really difficult and finally got my diagnosis about two years ago. And that's had a huge impact on, on me. But the biggest thing I suppose for me and around the SEND world is that is. I work a lot supporting parents, parents and carers in neuro divergent families. And what became really apparent to me when I went through that as a parent myself, which was my biggest learning curve I've ever been through, despite having been through all those kind of, you know, tribunals and everything like that as a professional, that going through that as a parent was the lack of support available for parents. We know there's a lack of support for our kids and we fight for that. But actually the acknowledgement and the pressure and the demand on parents, there is almost no support out there for us as parents to get through that. And that's kind of why the untypical OT was born. Partly because I had to change things up at home for my son because he was now learning from home and I couldn't go out and do the kind of typical assessments and things like that. And working with the kids. So I had to change things around and I felt really strongly that there was a really important message that I needed to get out there that how we meet parents' needs as well as our kids' needs at the same time. And we are notoriously rubbish at doing that as parents. Yeah, it's still something that I struggle with. Um, but I've made it my kind of mission to help parents and carers in neuro divergent families with looking after their needs and. People might have kind of heard me talk about social media and stuff. I talk quite a lot about parental burnout, mental health, emotional wellbeing, and how we look after ourselves and our central nervous systems, basically as parents. Wow. So loads of, there's so many things that I can unpack from that because there's, I'm like, yeah, I'm gonna ask about that. I'm gonna ask about that. Before we get come on to the parental burnout, et cetera. You said obviously you got your dyslexia diagnosis yourself two years ago, and that was a game changer. Can you explain kind of that process and how it impacted you after your diagnosis? So I've always been quite an anxious person and I think I got described as an anxious kid. I got described as an anxious adult. Um, and it wasn't until I went through some counseling for a different reason that. The council were talking to me about, you are not an anxious person. There are things that have happened and things in your life or needs that you have that cause anxiety. And actually that's completely normal. You aren't an anxious person. It doesn't make up your personality. I hope so. Yeah. Which was quite a revelation to me.'cause I just always used to think, oh, I'm anxious. It's my, it's, and I think. I had always suspected I was dyslexic, and it wasn't until I got to university that university staff said to me when I was trying to write essays. It's for the days of computers. We're talking now the goal, I'm trying to write an essay. Can you imagine for That's true. You know, for dyslexic it was just awful and got pulled in by the staff there and they said, do you think you could be dyslexic? And I went, no, I'm not dyslexic. And it was kind of dropped. It was never really picked up. Once I qualified and started to work, I got senior members staff wanting to check my notes. We have to do a lot of note writing and documentation as OTs, um, into files which can often be used, you know, in legal for legal reasons as well. So they have to be of a good quality on notes. And I was getting checked. I was having to write things out first before they went into, it was just soul destroying. It was absolutely soul destroying. Yeah, and I think what I learned to do then was my mom, ironically by my parents are teachers. So my poor mom now is like, I'm so sorry I missed it. But I was hardworking. I did a lot of work at home with my parents. We are great at masking some of us, so I masked really well. Loads of strategies in place to kind of cope with things. And everyone kind of knew there was this running joke in my family that I was the worst feller in the world, and they had a dictionary just for my spelling. Oh. Um, that was kind of when they all started. Yeah. But life got quite tough. I think for me, when I was dyslexic, especially when I started to work and my confidence went down and down and down, anytime I had to write anything, I was super caught conscious about the fact I was having to write. Everything seemed to take me 2, 3, 4 times longer than everybody else. I was writing reports. I was so stressed about reports that were taking me hours and hours to write. Um, I was getting quite a lot of comments from, you know, supervisors and. Colleagues and just little comments that really sting. Ugh. Yeah. That when you're a bit sensitive there anyway, you know those ones that can really cut a bit, a bit hard. A bit hard. Ugh. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Um, and I learned quite quickly to use the fact and say I was dyslexic before a diagnosis. Say I was dyslexic as a defense mechanism, so I would go in almost with, I'm dyslexic, so don't say anything. And that was my defense mechanism, was to say I was dyslexic, but hadn't really understood how my dyslexia presented, how it affected me. And I just thought like everybody else, probably dyslexia, just a bit problems with reading and writing, but actually a bit like other neurodivergent conditions and that, you know, whether you are autistic or whether you're A DHD, it affects us all in different ways because it's our brains, right? So eventually I thought, I'm gonna go and get an assessment. I need to know what's going on. And I'd spent a long time thinking, does it really matter? I tell people I'm a dyslexic, what's he gonna give me? Oh my goodness. It changed everything for me and weirdly, since having my diagnosis, my confidence has gone up through the roof. So back at secondary school where I would sit at the back of the classroom, would never speak, reading Shakespeare aloud, yeah, used to feel like I was gonna physically vomit, even to the point if a teacher asked, said my name in a register, I would get anxious about having to speak. So that kind of level of anxiety to now on social media doing podcasts and running your own podcast. Talking like talking now. So my confidence went up through the roof and what it did do for me was it gave me a kind of a scaffolding around understanding why I do the things I do and I've got a terrible working memory. I now know is a working terrible. And I never understood why I had hundreds of lists everywhere. Why? I was always really anxious that if someone gave me something to do, I had to do it there and then, and that was because I would forget it. I would forget it if a teacher was asking me a question, I wasn't retaining all the information that they would give me. So I'd remember the last bit, and then I'd be sitting, repeating what they were saying. The question was to, if I could remember it, when they got to me. My turn taking was awful. I just wanted to go first. Because otherwise I'd have forgotten what they said. Yeah, understandably. Yeah. The stress that went with that, and I think it's had a huge impact and I think it wasn't really until I became, I. Self-employed with my own business and you are know Nicole. It's not just doing front end and working with people with, it's the backend tax returns. Oh my God, I'm a nightmare with numbers. A nightmare, wrong numbers, back to front numbers, missing out a numbers, which is is kind of essential in your tax returns. Writing posts to go on social media, taking me hours and hours. Emails. Yeah, hours and hours. Repeating, changing, is it right? Does that, and all the time thinking, oh, I just sound ridiculous. I don't sound professional. And giving myself a really hard time about that. But once I got the diagnosis and that report was so amazing, apart from it took me forever to read it. Um, you should definitely do, it's like a audio version, like Absolutely. Yeah. So if anyone out there is doing reports. Put it in an audio because then it's accessible. Right. It took me forever to read it. Yeah. And I still go back and just check little bits because I think, oh, I wonder if that's something to do with it. And, you know, making sense of it all. Um, and I had a really lovely lady that did that assessment and she was brilliant because actually it was really difficult, I think with the adults kind of, might, might feel similar is that it made, it made me feel quite vulnerable. To go and show somebody how much I was actually struggling to strip away all the strategies that I have, distraction talking. All those strategies that I've had in place that distract people away from what I find difficult. I had to drop and it was quite an emotional thing to do, and I had to feel really safe with the person that did the assessment and let's say they were lovely, but it's made such a difference. Such a difference. And I think actually. Has made the relationship between my son and myself stronger in that I might not be autistic like he is, but our brains work differently. Um, and I'm very open with my kids about it and they've got, I dunno, they're would lucky and maybe that they're, um, they're a spelling reading. They are amazing. They've almost got photographic memories, the two of them. Yeah. And of course they've got a mum. I used to do their spelling test, Nicole, when they were little and they learned very quickly to check'cause they would spell it and I'd go, no, that's wrong. And they'd go, mum, have another look at it. And I'd be, oh yeah, no, you're right. And they used to do it, I dunno whether your kids do it, but they did a spelling and they spell phonetically. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I hate that. I can't work out what they're saying. No. So they learned from a very young and early age that I was rubbish at spelling and reading. They were very patient when I used to read books at night. But if they needed something for school, like they were stuck with a project or an art idea, or coming up with an idea, or they get stuck with something, I'm your person. Uh, problem solver, creative. Absolutely. So I think, and I went through a whole range of emotions when I got the diagnosis from, I might not get this, and then if I'm not dyslexic, what's wrong with me? So I went through that. Yeah. And then I went through the whole, now I'm angry. I'm upset that actually, what could life have been like if I had known this back when I was 7, 8, 9, and supports were in place. And what's been so fabulous now is that I've gone through access to work, which is a massive, long process, but what's come out of it? The end. All this stuff, these computer programs and stuff, now that's available. If I had this when I was at university, crikey, where could I have gone? So I think when people say they aren't sure about getting a diagnosis for something. It doesn't, I can't see where it's stopped me doing anything. I can't see where it has been a negative for me. I can only see the positive in that diagnosis. Other people might have different experiences, but from my personal experience, I, I wish I'd had it years and years and years ago. I think life would've been very different. Yeah, absolutely. Uh, when you are, thank you for sharing.'cause that's, I'm sure a lot of people listening will like, resonate with that because there's many, you know, people who maybe have kids. That neurodivergent and then going through a process thinking, oh, what is my brain like? Maybe my brain process is similar. Yeah. You know, I, I, yeah, went through the diagnosis process for d ADHD in December and yeah, it's that for me it was like, ah, like I didn't make it up, like when I got it, yeah. I was like, I'm not making it up. Because sometimes when you don't present in the way, that maybe is the typical, like for me, with the A DH adhd, not the outward. Naughty boy behavior, et cetera. That was the kind of stereotypical view of a DH adhd. And you're like, people are like, huh? Yeah, you're messy and you're, you're unorganized and you, you know, you worry a lot and you, you know, you think, and you're creative and have lots of ideas, but, you know, yeah. It's just, yeah. So it's, but actually getting it, you're like, I'm not making it up. And to know, I'm a massive advocate in understanding how your brain works, because then you can work with it rather than thinking, like you said, all those thoughts of thinking that you can't spell, you can't read, so you can't do those things, or that you are actually, yeah, I can't do this. Or you feel your self-esteem is lower because people are telling you like that you're lazy or that you're. Whatever people tell you when you understand. My brain, for example, is more prone to feel rejected, you know, the RSD, and so therefore I'm like, okay, well I'm not, I'm not just being overreacting and all of that. Like my brain is literally wired to. To, to feel it so much deeper than if my brain was wired in a, in a different way. So therefore I'm like, I can now tell myself like, okay, they may not have meant it as deeply as I feel it, but like now knowing, whereas before, I was just like, I would just drown in it of like. Rejection. So understanding how your brain works. Understanding also, you know, game changing for our family and you, you'll be able to speak into this of, you know, sensory regulation needs, understanding your nervous system, all of those things like, oh wow, I like, you know, I wish I knew that however many years ago because. That's why, you know, it's so important, especially what you do now with parental needs as well. So tell us more about, you know, why it's so important for parents to know and understand their sensory needs and understand what regulates them. I think there's often, there's kind of, there's analogies out there and I'm not, we use'em on and off, but actually do we kind of really take them on and, and. And do something about it. You get, you can't, you can't pull from an empty cup with one. I just think I hate that one. But anyway, people use it a lot and there is your, your, uh, oxygen mask, what isn't there. So if you're on a plane, you've gotta put your oxygen mask on before you can help anyone else. So we know that as parents, everyone talks about it, but the actual reality of doing that is really hard. And I think. That's a case for any parent. And when I talk about, you know, sensory support and I do kind of sessions around the sensory side of parenting, and that's not always just for neurodivergent families.'cause we all have a sensory system and some of us are more affected by our sensory systems than others. Some of us it changes as we kind of age, you know, sometimes it can be our hormones as we get through certain age. Sometimes it's to do with if we're under a lot of stress. It can affect our sensitivities to certain, um, sensation. So I would, I would talk to all parents about their sensory system, their central nervous system, and I think it's an essential part of us and how we navigate our way through life because our central nervous system and our sensory systems are the key. They're the kind of foundations to everything that we do. So I think. Working with parents for me is so important because I say we, we don't, we are not very good at putting ourselves first. And what I kind of don't want people to think is that I'm saying drop all your kids' needs, just look after you. Because I think most parents that come and look for help are not those kind of parents. And to be honest, in my career and as a parent myself, I can't tell you a time I've come across a parent, even ones that are really struggling. Because there's always a reason that they're struggling, that they don't want the best for their kids. They might not know or have the strategies to do it, or are so overwhelmed by their own mental health or central nervous systems that they can't do it. But ultimately, with those parents, as I say, the majority, I would hope, you know, 99.9% of parents, they're gonna wanna do better for their kids. And I say, if you wanna do better for your kids, you have to start with you, because when we are. Burnt out. Overwhelmed, stressed, oh, we can't offer what our kids need. And we also know that central nervous systems kind of speak to each other, so it sounds a bit woo and a bit weird, but they do. Yeah. So that feeling, you know, that feeling you get when you meet somebody and you get a sense about them, and you kind of feel it in your stomach and you're not quite sure what it is about them, but you're just not sure about them. That's your central nervous system kicking in, and it's just checking out somebody else. Am I safe? And you do get a a, a to and fro with central nervous systems. So our kids pick up on that. When our central nervous systems are fried, when our sensory systems are fried and we're not managing very well with overwhelmed and we're stressed, our kids will pick up on that. They will know, but we equally can't be zen all the time. And I'm very, very open with parents about that. I don't have a magic wand. I am not gonna make you the most em person in the world. That is just doesn't react to anything ever again because one, that's just not real life, real life two is no good for our kids either. Our kids need to know and see a whole range of emotions and that emotions are expressed in a safe way that we recover from emotions and feelings, um, and, and strategies that we can put in place to help us with that. And I think parents need that help, and especially parents in neuro diversion families because of the level of stress that we experienced. Not all of us, but a large majority of us. And there's a bit of research, and I can't remember the dates and where it was from in America, they did on parents of autistic children, and they were likening their stress levels to that of combat soldiers. I've seen that. Which blows my brains. I mean, I know I was stressed, but I would never have thought, oh, I can compare it to something like that. But they've done this piece of research and have found that, that the stresses of going through. Tribunal, eh, HCPs, local fight relationships, schools. Yeah. It's just exhausting. And that for me, and the reason I'm so passionate about supporting parents to not get to burnout is because I ended up in burnout and I, that was through navigating my son. Diagnosis, local authority, and ultimately through tribunal. And, and yeah, that was the tipping point for me was tribunal. Yeah. Like it is, it is crazy. I so many, so many things. I mean, right now is a very pivotal point in whether what's gonna happen, you know, in the future. Yeah. For our Send kids and the support that they're gonna get. We know that probably parents are going to have to keep fighting to advocate for their children. Like we are gonna have to be there. So having strategies and having things in place and understanding our nervous system and our specific needs, you know, is, is so important. Definitely, you know, seek a lot of that kind of, when I, when I'm not, even when it's hot outside. You'll still find me often in my big fluffy, uh, odie because it's the comfort of the fluffiness of the I feel, and the smell and the, all of those different things do. I can feel myself relaxing, um, with that. So even the simple thing like that, I. It's probably not what people expect to see me in, in, in 2025 degree heat. And they probably won't see me, but in my house. Yeah. You see mine is singing and I sing in the car. Ah, okay. With no one else in there. And I almost have to have time in the car with no one else in it where I can sing. It's all to do with breath and stuff like that, but for me it's being able to sing and it has to be really loudly onto certain bits of music. Watch your music. Well, he seems like the killers and stuff. Mr. Brightside. Yeah, there's some just bits like that that have, have got a bit of shouting to them that you can run and really let go, but there's still quite a lot of melody in there. For me, defiant Gravity is, is always been like even so, even before Wicked got super popular with the being on the screen. Like it was even just before my first, before I was parent, before I was a parent, before I was anything. When I was just going for my interview to be a teacher like 14 years ago, I sat in my car around the corner, not in the car park of the school, and I sang and nobody in all of, and then I inserted the school is ever gonna bring me down. It's the little things. Take'em. If they work, take them. But I think it's really interesting because. The fact that you just said a minute ago, you know, it's the fight and every parent I speak to will say to me, it's the fight. Actually. How bad is being in fight mode all the time For our mental health, our central nervous system, our emotional regulation, even biologically, you know, I have my theories. I now have some autoimmune conditions that have been diagnosed. Since I had the burn, the burnout that I went through, they, maybe they've been there forever and this's triggered it. I, who knows? And there is research in there to show around levels of stress and cortisol and autoimmune conditions. So I have some strong beliefs around that as well. And I remember right in the early days talking to a parent that was kind of a bit further down the line than me, and they had said to me, you're gonna have to learn to fight. And I remember coming home to my mom and saying. I can't, it will make me ill, I don't like, I hate that feeling of being angry. Probably some whole psychological issue in there as well. But I don't like feeling angry. Um, I find it very difficult. Um, it takes me a long time to recover from it and I thought, if I'm gonna survive this with my son, and I really mean survive this, the bear of us. I can't get angry because I can get motivated, I can get persistent. Um, I have to take that anger out because it will consume us and it will consume me. And being angry is not good for anybody long term. And I know why people say that because unfortunately, unless you, it's the people that shout the loudest can be the most difficult and are that parent. When, when I hear professionals say that,'cause I still, you know, work professional I think. But why are they that parent? Why they were met common parent. Like if, if their child's needs were met, they wouldn't have to advocate for them, so therefore they wouldn't be this parent. Exactly. That. Exactly that. So, you know, I do feel really strongly and I said, and I met a, a very wise lady that said to me, and I said to her, I can't be that angry parent. I, I'm, I won't survive it. I won't manage. And she said to me, you have to become pleasantly persistent. And that's what I became. Yeah. I had to find ways to keep my anger levels down because it was gonna all consume me. Um, and even then, you know, I still, I still burnt out. I still burnt out through that process and I just, when it all came crashing down, I just remember kind of on the way back up again when things started to kind of settle a bit and I managed to get back on top of things, which I just thought. I just need to go out there and do something to help other parents that they don't get to this point, that they feel so isolated, so on their own, so beaten by a system that they are left as almost, there's nothing left to them as parents anymore. All the joy in my life had gone. Somebody said to me, remember somebody said to me, what you enjoy doing? And I cried because I thought, I dunno anymore. My whole life is about fighting. To get what my son's, my son needs, you know, and some of us at some point. And that that was the case for me is that our kids are so poorly in their mental health, you know, what's our one role as a parent to look after our kids in their life? Yeah. And when you are working with an A system that is almost not letting you do that, it's utterly terrifying as a parent. It's, we're not just being annoying, we're frightened, you know, and anxious and worried about our kids. And I think. There are a lot of amazing professionals out there, but also there are some professionals that I think don't get it. Absolutely. Um, and maybe government that don't get it. Maybe we need to go, go talk to them about what it actually really feels like. And I'm not being difficult. I'm actually frightened my kids. You want them to be safe. I didn't last year at school, it was like, I don't feel safe. Yeah, he didn't feel safe. Yeah. And it can be that. I mean, fortunately we've turned, it's turned around and, and I do feel safe sending him to school. Now he does have that support and he does. Yeah. You know, but when he didn't, you feel therefore you are on higher level all the time. I mean, I'm pretty much on higher level all the time still now because of seizures and, and things like that. But yeah, uh, you do try to, because you know, as a parent, you know, you're like, right, I can't live like this. The cortisol levels, et cetera. It's, in reality, it's, it's pretty hard to. It's really hard and I think that's, that was the big thing for me. And people saying to me, we just need to have a rest. You know, when the kids are wherever, go for a lie down. I'm thinking, do you know what? You could send me to Barbados for four months and it still wouldn't even touch the sides. I'd still be exhausted because actually my, you're not solving the problem on it still. Yes, absolutely. And I think what's really different about parental burnout to can and say like workplace burnout, is that the reason for the burnout? If it's work, you can have conversations with work and can, you know, ultimately you can change jobs, you can move to a different job. Ultimately, I can't, well, you can change local authorities, but that doesn't often make much difference, does it? I know some are worse than others, but actually you are dealing with a system that you cannot, it's so big. It's such a monster. That's short of pulling your kids out of the education system and homeschooling and even, you know, that's complicated now as well and some of us can't do that. You know, I couldn't afford to pull him out. I had to have, and I had to go down the route of Yeah. Tribunal and, you know, to get what he needed. I just, I wish my one plea, I suppose would be, and I've got a, a podcast episode coming up actually called Tribunal Trauma. Ah. And it's me talking about going through that and I think my one plea is that, you know, people, professionals talk about difficult parents. And I just wish, if you think you've got a difficult parent or that parent, ask yourself why. Yeah. A lot of the time underneath that is one really scared parent. That is trying their very best with all the skills that they have available to them at that moment and the capacity that they have available at that moment to keep that child as safe as possible. And it's just remembering that, that they're, they're people and they're real people and they're going through a lot completely. Uh, yeah. That's so important because. Sometimes I think if you've not, it's interesting'cause obviously for you, you've come, you have both sides of that. And for me, you know, with as teachers,'cause teachers say the same thing about that parent, et cetera, you know, you see both sides. You're like, oh wow. Yeah. Like when you are in it and you are trying to get that system and going against that system, who's trying to stop you getting what your kid needs, you know, it gives you that dual perspective, which yeah. Is, is invaluable. And that's what people need to listen. That's what government needs to listen to. You know, that. What are the parents saying and why are they, why are they, you know, fighting and why are they having to do that? Yeah. No parent wants to go to tribunal. No parent wants to fight the local authority. They just want their kids to go to school. You know, I'd love for my son to be able to go to school. That's ultimately where he and I wanna get to. We know there's some work to do to get there, but I didn't think, oh, what's the easy option? I know what I'll have him at home on an the April package that I ended up ferrying him halfway around the county from one side to the other. Trying to hold down a job. I've got another son that I'm trying to parent and support as well, and I'm a solo parent. I didn't think, this'll be fun. It's not your choice. It's like, you know. No. I wanted to find an amazing place that he could go and he was gonna be actually be himself safe and well, you know, and, and could learn and could be and enjoy what he was doing, but we couldn't find it. And they dragged me all the way to tribunal. Yeah. Yeah. Even with the support of Cams we had the back of backing of Cams. And they drag me all the way to tribunal. It's, yeah, it's the system and things, you know, it just, it breaks your heart with how much it puts people through. Yes. You know, which is, is why it's important to do things like write to your mp to try and, you know, fill in the, the petitions and all of those different things that we can do to try and actually change the system. As well as being the change in our local bit, in our little, you know, communities, et cetera. Um, it's so important because, so, you know, if you're listening and you're like, yeah, actually just, you know, send an email and be like, I wanna talk about send system. Like, can I come and see you? I did that, uh, with my MP and we had a good chat. So, um, and, and I'm gonna give some work to him to. Um, to share. Uh, so we've got a local mp. Yeah, actually I did similar, reached out to our local mp, um, and he's been doing some great stuff. Um, and he's very aware of the kind of send crisis and support and calling out the, the local authority as well on, on some of their conduct. So it's, I think it's coming. I think the voices loud from the parents and the, you, the charities that are out there, it's coming. It's slow. And I've, what I still worry about a bit like you say at the moment, you know, whilst we're recording this in what we, in July, that there's a lot going on in government and talking and where are the parent voices in that? There's people up there making decisions and big decisions about, will this still exist? Will that still exist? Can we get rid of this? What the, but I don't hear enough VO parent voice in there. Um. You gotta listen to the people who have gone through the process to be able to, you know, know what in reality it's actually like, yeah. So important. I don't think anyone, anyone ever, and I worked with families that were in tribunals and providing reports and stuff for them. I don't think anyone truly understands it until they are in it. And it is your kid and you are, you are suddenly thinking, my kid's not safe. Absolutely. I wouldn't wish it on anybody. That lived experience is absolutely key. Absolutely key. Thank you so much, Liz, for coming and chatting. You're welcome. And sharing. Really, really helpful. If people want to connect with you, where's the best place to connect? So obviously there's a podcast. So I do my podcast as well called the Untypical Parent Podcast. So that runs and that's out weekly and you can find that on all the platforms. And then I've got my website, which is the untypical ot, and then just the usual kind of, so I'm on Facebook, Insta, and LinkedIn gave TikTok a well, but decided, nah, not for me. Uh, so there is, there is something on TikTok, but yeah, I don't go on there. It's horrible. So, yeah, definitely go follow Liz. She's got some really good webinars as well. That would be useful for you too. So yeah, definitely go and check her out. Thank you so much, Liz, for joining us. Thank you. Yeah, thanks for having me, Nicole. That's right. And uh, I hope you have a good fortnight and I'll see you in a fortnight with another episode of Conversations with the Send Mom, please do follow conversations with the Send Mom on Instagram to find out snippets and also you can listen to other episodes on all the platforms.